Cloning the GameCube component cable

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Nukatha
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by Nukatha » Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:53 am

The first person to mass produce those boards... woah, if nothing else, you could sell one to every member of the competitive smash community.
Anyways, time for me to hop on the hype train and figure out how I can build one.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by Unseen » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:41 am

Nukatha wrote:The first person to mass produce those boards... woah, if nothing else, you could sell one to every member of the competitive smash community.
But would the smash community really be willing to accept a solution that adds approximately a dozen pixels of lag? ;)
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by emu_kidid » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:45 am

Smash guys play on a CRT as well lets not forget that.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by megalomaniac » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:48 am

Unseen wrote:But would the smash community really be willing to accept a solution that adds approximately a dozen pixels of lag? ;)

haha...just as i hinted also...nice!!
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Nukatha
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by Nukatha » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:58 pm

emu_kidid wrote:Smash guys play on a CRT as well lets not forget that.
Unseen wrote:
Nukatha wrote:The first person to mass produce those boards... woah, if nothing else, you could sell one to every member of the competitive smash community.
But would the smash community really be willing to accept a solution that adds approximately a dozen pixels of lag? ;)
All true. Competitive smashers love their 'lagless' smash. Even the Wavebird's too laggy for them. However, some CRTs do have component-in ports, at least in America.
Now, you mention the current lack of audio support. Is the improvement gained by using the console's digital audio actually noticeable?
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iamdablasta
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by iamdablasta » Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:21 pm

Nukatha wrote:
emu_kidid wrote:Smash guys play on a CRT as well lets not forget that.
Unseen wrote:
Nukatha wrote:The first person to mass produce those boards... woah, if nothing else, you could sell one to every member of the competitive smash community.
But would the smash community really be willing to accept a solution that adds approximately a dozen pixels of lag? ;)
All true. Competitive smashers love their 'lagless' smash. Even the Wavebird's too laggy for them. However, some CRTs do have component-in ports, at least in America.
Now, you mention the current lack of audio support. Is the improvement gained by using the console's digital audio actually noticeable?
I bet some of them have even shortened their controller wire and video wire to reduce ms by the tiniest bit.
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meneerbeer
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by meneerbeer » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:16 am

This looks really nice. I have some experience with FPGAs. I am currently busy with N64 to VGA (and hopefully I can upgrade it to HDMI at some point) and after that I was thinking of moving on to the GameCube, because these are very similar projects. I can probably use a lot of my code, just need to implement 480p and 576p input, because N64 does not have those resolutions. My N64 to VGA project currently only supports 240p games. I am not sure what to do with 480i yet. I could do line doubling, but that would ruin the vertical resolution. :? Perhaps we can exchange some knowledge.

I am wondering about a few things. If you use the RGB output from the board and the game is 480p, can you then display it on a computer monitor with VGA? I am also interested in your HDMI version. Does it output 480i, 480p, 576i, 576p depending on what the game uses, or do you always convert it to 480p for instance? With my N64 to VGA project I am forced to convert it to 480p, since monitors rarely support interlaced signals. I also saw the discussion on assemblergames on using an analog devices chip for HDMI. I think that would be really nice and if it supports 480i, 480p, 576i, 576p input signals, then you won't really have to do video conversion. Then again, I think some of these video signals will only work on TVs and not on monitors, but that's not a problem for a lot of people.

I saw some people talking about using this board for RGB from an N64. I am pretty sure you can use my code for that. Github doesn't work for me at the moment, I'll link it later.
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MockyLock
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by MockyLock » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:09 am

Hello meneerbeer,
is your work close to this one ?
http://retroactive.be/tech_n64_hdmi.php
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by Unseen » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:14 am

meneerbeer wrote:If you use the RGB output from the board and the game is 480p, can you then display it on a computer monitor with VGA?
Yes
I am also interested in your HDMI version. Does it output 480i, 480p, 576i, 576p depending on what the game uses, or do you always convert it to 480p for instance?
Technically it's just a DVI version and it outputs almost exactly what the game uses - since many games use "weird" resolutions like 666x448, the code converts some of the blanking area into black pixels to extend the active window to a standard resolution because some TVs/monitors behave weird with non-standard resolution. For example I have a small battery-powered 10" TV with HDMI in that disables the 4:3/16:9 switch and always scales the image to full screen unless it receives a standard resolution.

I also have a module that can linedouble 240p/288p to 480p/576p, but I haven't yet found a reliable way to create an "acceptable" 480p output timing from a 480i input signal with just linedoubling.

One problem with using "only" DVI with 480i/576i is that as far as I know they're not really specified for that standard. The only device I've seen yet that has some slight problems with that is an XRGB mini though: Most of the time (but not always?!) with a 480i/576i DVI input it will shift the display window very far to the left. IIRC there are no missing pixels, but the image is not centered, no matter how you change its settings. The other thing that the XRGB Mini dislikes is the switch from 480i to 480p, it tends to detect the new resolution as 360x480p instead and throws out every second pixel - it's very visible on the menu screen of FFCC for example. I think I know a way to fix that (by simulating a momentary cable disconnection), but I can't test that on my Atlys board as the line that needs to be under FPGA control is hard-wired to 5V there.
I also saw the discussion on assemblergames on using an analog devices chip for HDMI.
The thing I haven't mentioned there is the problem with blanking mentioned above, I hoped that the guy who insisted that my solution uses way too much resources would actually take up the challenge and run into that wall. ;)
Then again, I think some of these video signals will only work on TVs and not on monitors, but that's not a problem for a lot of people.
Most modern monitors support TV-derived timings anyway, especially if they have an HDMI input. I would expect problems only with rather old monitors like the Sony SDM-X72 I use on a second PC, which refuses to display anything that doesn't look rather closely like a PC video signal.
I saw some people talking about using this board for RGB from an N64.
That was probably me. =) It's on my list of things to do and the code for it should be rather simple compared to the decoder for the Cube's signals, I just didn't have the time and patience yet to solder many fine wires to my N64.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by meneerbeer » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:58 am

MockyLock wrote:Hello meneerbeer,
is your work close to this one ?
http://retroactive.be/tech_n64_hdmi.php
Hard to say, because I do not know the techniques he is using (how he processes the picture, output resolution etc.). I think my project is similar for 240p games, but not for 480i. I do not know how he handles the interlaced video and I have yet to work on this myself. That project did inspire me to make mine though.
I also have a module that can linedouble 240p/288p to 480p/576p, but I haven't yet found a reliable way to create an "acceptable" 480p output timing from a 480i input signal with just linedoubling.
My approach is to first write it to RAM (I use SDRAM) and read the picture from there. Of course that adds lag, but it is easier to generate reliable video timing.

Technically it's just a DVI version and it outputs almost exactly what the game uses - since many games use "weird" resolutions like 666x448, the code converts some of the blanking area into black pixels to extend the active window to a standard resolution because some TVs/monitors behave weird with non-standard resolution. For example I have a small battery-powered 10" TV with HDMI in that disables the 4:3/16:9 switch and always scales the image to full screen unless it receives a standard resolution.
N64 has weird resolutions as well. I believe a frame does not even have 640 lines. My solution is to add black borders as well. I guess the strange resolution is because of overscan?
The thing I haven't mentioned there is the problem with blanking mentioned above, I hoped that the guy who insisted that my solution uses way too much resources would actually take up the challenge and run into that wall. ;)
I am not too worried about using too many resources. I think it does not really matter if the price gets higher, if it has HDMI/DVI. When I take a look at this chip, it seems it can also handle audio. If this chip is able to handle 480i, 480p, 576i, 576p it should not be too hard to generate HDMI with it. Decode the GC picture, fix the blanking? and feed it into the chip. It almost seems too easy to be true... It can then be used for the N64 as well.
That was probably me. =) It's on my list of things to do and the code for it should be rather simple compared to the decoder for the Cube's signals, I just didn't have the time and patience yet to solder many fine wires to my N64.
Yes, the wiring really is a pain.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by Unseen » Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:16 pm

meneerbeer wrote:My approach is to first write it to RAM (I use SDRAM) and read the picture from there. Of course that adds lag, but it is easier to generate reliable video timing.
It's an option I haven't tried yet - there isn't enough block-RAM in the FPGA to hold an entire field and the RAM on the Atlys board is DDR3 which is a pain to use even with the hard memory controller block in the Spartan6.
N64 has weird resolutions as well. I believe a frame does not even have 640 lines. My solution is to add black borders as well. I guess the strange resolution is because of overscan?
I think the N64 even has a weird pixel clock which might become a problem if you want to generate HDMI/DVI from its video signal? On the cube everything is derived from a 54MHz clock which is 2x or 4x the pixel clock for 480i/576i/480p/576p standard resolutions.

The reduced resolution is basically a trick by the game developer to reduce the amount of pixels that need to be rendered, the overscan of a normal TV hides it.
Yes, the wiring really is a pain.
Maybe you could consider building an HDMI inteface for a PS1? Internally it's just a 24-bit parallel video data bus with discrete sync signals, all connected to a 0.5mm pitch TQFP. ;)
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by tesla246 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:38 pm

I love all this digital talking :D Would be amazing if someone came up with a digital audio and video solution. Btw, maybe it is an idea to ask marshall, form the n64 HDMI board, for a push in the righ direction? Since he isnt planning on making the N64 boards gamecube compatible, or is he?
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by MockyLock » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:51 pm

Thinking of our old systems like N64 or PS1 in HDMI on our modern TVs.
What a fantasy :]
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by andre104623 » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:00 pm

I have just ordered 3 of these boards from OSHpark. Just so everyone knows you can order 3 of these boards from them for 23.00USD with free shipping and its a shared project at OSHpark.com you can simply click shared projects at the top of the web page and look for GCvideo. I have used OSHpark for my IDE-EXI boards there great but I wish they would come in other colors besides purple.
IMG_20140828_175536.jpg
(1.69 MiB) Not downloaded yet
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by bobrocks95 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:29 pm

Let us know how putting everything together goes! I'd order a few myself, but my soldering skills are nowhere near good enough for something so fine-pitched. I'll have to wait until someone decides to sell assembled boards, or there's a manufacturing run of factory-assembled ones someone organizes.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by andre104623 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:44 pm

bobrocks95 wrote:Let us know how putting everything together goes! I'd order a few myself, but my soldering skills are nowhere near good enough for something so fine-pitched. I'll have to wait until someone decides to sell assembled boards, or there's a manufacturing run of factory-assembled ones someone organizes.
No one is mass producing these at this time it's only DIY and in beta testing. As far as I know it might not even work but I like a challenge. The only person who has one is unseen we are all waiting for the fab it will be some months but I for see great things soon. Maybe someone could get that digital audio working......
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price0331
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by price0331 » Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:46 pm

Amazing work, I have only done a bit of soldering, but I think it is about time I buy some new tools for this bad boy. :D

Question though, I plan on only using component out. Does anyone have any recommendations for a right angle set of component connectors that can be attached to the board? Or is this a wire lead only thing to some jacks?


Thanks!
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by iamdablasta » Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:30 pm

price0331 wrote:Amazing work, I have only done a bit of soldering, but I think it is about time I buy some new tools for this bad boy. :D

Question though, I plan on only using component out. Does anyone have any recommendations for a right angle set of component connectors that can be attached to the board? Or is this a wire lead only thing to some jacks?


Thanks!
If I were you I'd buy some cheap connector, take it apart, drill holes, and mount it on the back of the gc in place of the usual spot for component.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by Unseen » Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:05 pm

price0331 wrote:Question though, I plan on only using component out. Does anyone have any recommendations for a right angle set of component connectors that can be attached to the board? Or is this a wire lead only thing to some jacks?
The current board only has a few pads with 2.54mm spacing (and too-small drill holes - oops), so you can use any component connector you like (probably something panel-mountable) and bridge the distance with a few wires.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by HyperIris » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:26 am

Thank you! A wonderful project!

a little suggest:
The video DAC can be replace by 3 R-2R resistor ladder network.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by Unseen » Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:25 am

HyperIris wrote:The video DAC can be replace by 3 R-2R resistor ladder network.
An 8-bit R2R DAC needs 0.4% precision resistors or better, otherwise you lose precision due to the resistor's tolerances. A quick check at Digikey for 0805 or 0603 SMD resistors with 0.25% precision or better and 560 or 280 ohm value (that's the two values you would want) with a quantity of 1000 gives some Panasonic 0.1% resistors as the cheapest option with 0.07695 USD per resistor. For 50 resistors (approximately right for three 8-bit R2Rs) that's about 4 USD, which isn't that much less than the DAC at 5.90 USD in quantities of 10. For a hand-soldered board I know which version I'd rather solder.

Besides, ~50 SMD resistors require quite a bit more space on the board than a single TQFP48 and its decoupling caps and output network.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by HyperIris » Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:47 pm

Oh, sorry. I no't know the price on your country. I'm in China, I can buy 200 resisters (1%) under 1$ on market, and test them to find the same ones for use...

also, there is a project called N64 RGB, it uses 3 R-2R resistor ladder network, the picture seems nice.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/ ... 64rgb.html

I'll try this way when I have spare time.

Thank you again!
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bobrocks95
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by bobrocks95 » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:36 am

Bear with me, as I don't know much about FPGA's at all, but would the Pluto IIx dev board be sufficient for 480p signal processing? (Spec sheet here)

I bring it up because I saw this board used on another site for a simple example of outputting a 480p image over HDMI, but I don't believe it used any inputs or signal processing/decoding at all. Does that require a lot of power and/or speed also? Again, please forgive my ignorance on the subject.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by Unseen » Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:31 am

bobrocks95 wrote:Bear with me, as I don't know much about FPGA's at all, but would the Pluto IIx dev board be sufficient for 480p signal processing? (Spec sheet here)
Oh, neat. Small board, just the essentials on it, reasonably cheap. It is very likely sufficient for the job, although I'd have to actually port my code to it to be sure as the architecture has changed quite a bit between the Spartan-3A and Spartan-6.

The only thing that worries me is that they don't seem to publish any schematics for their boards and the information in their documentation is incomplete, e.g. no pins given for HDMI.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by bobrocks95 » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:00 pm

Are they required in any way to send schematics if you request them, or is it just that other companies are being maybe a bit more consumer-friendly and posting schematics as their own decision?

Also, is porting between architecture a very extensive process? I feel like it would be a good learning experience as I'm getting into FPGA stuff at University. Is your code written in Verilog or VHDL? Or maybe it's hardware specific?
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