Cloning the GameCube component cable

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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by Unseen » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:43 pm

bobrocks95 wrote:Are they required in any way to send schematics if you request them, or is it just that other companies are being maybe a bit more consumer-friendly and posting schematics as their own decision?
They're not required to, but it's the first time I've seen an FPGA development board without schematics. Some vendors may leave out parts like an integrated JTAG interface, but the main FPGA and all peripherals connected to it are generally shown.
Also, is porting between architecture a very extensive process?
That depends a lot on the way the code is written. If it uses a lot of vendor/architecture-specific primitives, porting requires more work than code that relies on the synthesis software to infer everything. Since in my (small, mostly Xilinx-based) experience the FPGA tools these days are at least ok in that regard (e.g. Quartus can be a bit touchy if you're trying to describe dual-ported RAMs) the gcvideo code is written using generic VHDL whereever possible. It seems to have worked - the decoder and color space conversion modules have been successfully synthesized for Xilinx, Altera and Lattice FPGAs with no changes except modifications to the top-level module to account for the different peripherals connected to the FPGA.

The exception to this is the DVI encoder which is based on code from the Hamsterworks wiki. It currently uses a few Spartan 6-specific primitives for the differential output signals and clock multiplication as there is no way to infer these modules from generic VHDL code. These parts would need to be adapted for use on a Spartan 3A, but this shouldn't be too hard as there is a Xilinx application note showing how to implement HDMI transmitters and receivers on a Spartan 3A and there is a wizard for generating a configuration for the clock managers in the Xilinx IDE.
Is your code written in Verilog or VHDL? Or maybe it's hardware specific?
It's all in VHDL. Although it's more verbose than Verilog I prefer it because it has much stricter type checking.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by bobrocks95 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:11 am

Looking at the Spartan-3A spec-sheet a bit, I see the lowest-speed model's I/O throughput is 640 Mb/s, and 270 Mb/s is the throughput for 720x480 video @ 60Hz with 24-bit color depth (which IIRC describes the gamecube and wii's output correctly. The 720 horizontal pixels thing always throws me off).

This might not factor in HDMI-specific stuff (e.g. I've read that each color channel also includes a TMDS encoding that adds 2 bits, bringing the total to 30-bits of color information per pixel), and any additional processing of the raw digital input from the Gamecube, but a 370+ Mb/s overhead seems like it would have enough room for everything, am I right about that?

Perhaps you already thought through all of this in your head when I brought up the dev board, haha.

Think I'll just buy this some time after I've learned some more fundamental stuff. The current Logic Circuits class I'm in is of course using Verilog, since I've found something interesting that's written in VHDL. I'll make it into a big learning experience if HDMI support hasn't been fully implemented by someone by then, or if nobody's doing production runs where I like the price point (unlikely though).
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by Unseen » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:42 am

bobrocks95 wrote:Perhaps you already thought through all of this in your head when I brought up the dev board, haha.
Actually I complete forgot to check that. =) XAPP460 confirms the 270MBit/s rate for 480p video and the 640MBit/s on the lowest speed grade, so I wouldn't expect any problems on that side.
I'll make it into a big learning experience if HDMI support hasn't been fully implemented by someone by then, or if nobody's doing production runs where I like the price point (unlikely though).
At the very least you should have a shipping-time advantage. Even if I order right now I wouldn't expect to see the board within less than 2-6 weeks due to the distance and customs processing.

One thing I forgot to mention in the previous posting: Even though a given piece of HDL code may synthesize for many different FPGAs without changes, it may not be optimal for them. For example I have an unreleased version of the YCbCr to RGB color space converter that uses straight multiplication to implement the conversion. This is no problem on the Spartan FPGAs at all and the Lattice tools will also happily synthesize it for the MachXO2, but the resulting code is a lot bigger and doesn't fit into the XO2-640 used on the released board. That's because the XO2 does not have any hardware multipliers, so a lot of logic is created to build them as needed. The released code instead implements these multiplications with a series of shift and add operations which results in a much smaller logic network because the calculation is spread out over multiple clock cycles and the operations are a better fit for the logic blocks. On the other hand the add+shift version of the converter works on the Spartan FPGAs, but for them it's more efficient to use their hardware multipliers instead to reduce the amount of logic blocks needed.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by Unseen » Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:57 pm

In case anyone cares, I've just uploaded an alternative FPGA bitstream to use the board as an RGB/Component DAC for the Nintendo 64. It was a nice way to pass the time while I was waiting for my replacement Gamecube to arrive. ;)

It's based on the descriptions on Tim's n64dac web site. Since a simple RGB-only DAC would leave most of the FPGA unused, I also added an RGB-to-YCbCr color converter so the board can output either RGB or Component video from the N64.

Just to make this clear: It's a completely seperate FPGA bitstream, so a board can be programmed to work either on a Gamecube or on an N64, but switching between consoles means it has to be reprogrammed. An auto-detecting version would in theory be possible, but since it would require two color space converters I think it would be too large for the FPGA. I don't think many people would want to switch the same DAC board between consoles anyway and installers/vendors should be able to reprogram the chip on an as-needed basis.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by MockyLock » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:36 pm

It's becoming more and more interesting !
Modding my N64 in YPbPr or HDMI is one of my holy grail !
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by public-pervert » Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:01 pm

Heck yeah! This is awesome! Have you already tested it on a n64? Vids please :D
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by Unseen » Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:35 pm

public-pervert wrote:Heck yeah! This is awesome! Have you already tested it on a n64? Vids please :D
It's just bog-standard N64-with-RGB, do you really need a video for that?
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by megalomaniac » Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:15 pm

Good job

I should be able to connect to GC tonight for quick testing...
Then maybe n64 within a few days..or maybe even tonight if I have time...

Thanks..I'm looking forward to seeing how this board will perform
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by LOCtronicz » Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:31 pm

Awesome!! My board will be coming in soon too. When I have assembled one I shall also add my test results for GC and N64. Mega are you going to open a new thread with the test results? or do we keep it in here??
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by megalomaniac » Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:33 am

LOCtronics wrote:Awesome!! My board will be coming in soon too. When I have assembled one I shall also add my test results for GC and N64. Mega are you going to open a new thread with the test results? or do we keep it in here??
yea that sounds good...maybe open a new thread for posting of results and communication for those of us who will be part of the initial trials...
i plan to have all the boards soldered up by end of week and shipped out to the test group...

so it sounds like you and everyone else will all be testing at about the same time...
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by bobrocks95 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:49 am

I was going to take the plunge and get that Pluto-IIx HDMI dev board I posted earlier (and kindly ask Unseen for his HDMI source to see if I could take a crack at porting it), but I'm quickly realizing that flashing/programming devices cost at least as much as the board unless I have a Serial port on my computer and an hour of free time whenever I want to flash it.

Are there any cheaper solutions I don't know about to interface the board with my computer? It has a JTAG header and an RS-232 (Serial) header.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by megalomaniac » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:43 am

initial testing performed...
by initial testing i only mean i confirmed the presence of 480i component, 480p component, and 576p component...
more testing needed and comparisons to see how this performs against the actual MX...


some quick observations:
the good
- color translation appears correct
- no "noticeable" glitches...no "noticeable" lag...no "noticeable" studder
- analog audio appears in sync with video
- definite improvement compared between 480i composite and 480i component...
- 480p/576p looks good...need to compare against MX
- progressive appears sharp

the bad
- most will find difficult to hand solder the components to the pcb ( already indicated in README )
- wireporn installation to digital port ( biased opinion, im anti-wireporn )




overall initial opinion:
seems like this solution is ready to go and could be a great substitute to the actual MX...but i dont want to get everyone all excited until more testing can be done and more data / opinions presented from the test group...i only spent a little less than 1hr testing playback with a few GC titles and some emulators...ill set aside some time this weekend since my only quick goal was to have this design connected to GC and quickly verified as working...


more to come..


thanks Unseen, i like this very much so far
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by Unseen » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:36 am

bobrocks95 wrote:but I'm quickly realizing that flashing/programming devices cost at least as much as the board unless I have a Serial port on my computer and an hour of free time whenever I want to flash it.

Are there any cheaper solutions I don't know about to interface the board with my computer? It has a JTAG header and an RS-232 (Serial) header.
There are chinese clones of the Xilinx USB JTAG adapter on eBay for ~30-40USD. Alternatively you could try to build a Xilinx-specific parallel port JTAG adapter (Xilinx DLC 5/parallel JTAG adapter 3), but you'd have to make sure that it outputs 3.3V signals (i.e. must be buffered, not just some wires) and it's only supported in older versions of the Xilinx tools (Impact 10.2? or earlier, can be installed in parallel with newer ones).

Edit: There is another option I forgot to mention: You can use the programming tool to convert the bitstream into an (X)SVF file which is a more-or-less standardized format for storing JTAG "activity" which can then be replayed with any JTAG adaptor that has a software available which supports this format, which doesn't need to know anything specific about the device it is programming. There are a few open-source programs out there that can handle (X)SFV playback with various JTAG adapters, one example would be the Bus Pirate. It's less convenient than a JTAG interface that is directly supported by the Xilinx software though because it's at least one additional step every time you want to program the FPGA and I'm not sure if it is possible to program the config flash this way.
megalomaniac wrote:- analog audio appears in sync with video
I would be surprised if it wasn't - the RAM in the FPGA is so small that just two lines of video are too much data for it.
- most will find difficult to hand solder the components to the pcb ( already indicated in README )
I'm still planning to re-layout the board with pads for the two chips that extend further out, which in my experience makes soldering them much easier.
- wireporn installation to digital port ( biased opinion, im anti-wireporn )
Use two 11-wire ribbon cables and it looks much neater. ;) I'm open on suggestions for improvements on this though since I need to re-layout the board anyway. The current connector footprint was primarily chosen for my own convenience because a matching connector is hanging from the back of my Cube.
thanks Unseen, i like this very much so far
It's good to know that it actually works on someone else's hardware. =)
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by andre104623 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:23 pm

My boards haven't got back from the fab yet mega got his back fast. Hoping for the same outcome of his testing but I'm still waiting for parts might be 2-3 weeks till I can get these built and flashed.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by andre104623 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:27 pm

I have a question about the install to the gamecube. Since 2 of the pins on the 22 pin connector are ground can't we use 20 wires or 20 pin ffc cable to connect the gcvideo
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by Unseen » Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:48 pm

andre104623 wrote:I have a question about the install to the gamecube. Since 2 of the pins on the 22 pin connector are ground can't we use 20 wires or 20 pin ffc cable to connect the gcvideo
You could certainly do that, although I would rather recommend to leave out pins 5 (+12V) and 6 (27MHz) instead - GCVideo doesn't need either of them. Additional GNDs are are a good thing when dealing with high-speed signals.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by megalomaniac » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:29 pm

Unseen wrote:
andre104623 wrote:I have a question about the install to the gamecube. Since 2 of the pins on the 22 pin connector are ground can't we use 20 wires or 20 pin ffc cable to connect the gcvideo
You could certainly do that, although I would rather recommend to leave out pins 5 (+12V) and 6 (27MHz) instead - GCVideo doesn't need either of them. Additional GNDs are are a good thing when dealing with high-speed signals.

Also to add for andre, before complicating and changing up the install, at least verify everything is working per recommended instructions.. After that is at least performed then you have established a working foundation to begin experimenting with any other connectivity method you choose...
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by andre104623 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:59 pm

megalomaniac wrote:
Unseen wrote:
andre104623 wrote:I have a question about the install to the gamecube. Since 2 of the pins on the 22 pin connector are ground can't we use 20 wires or 20 pin ffc cable to connect the gcvideo
You could certainly do that, although I would rather recommend to leave out pins 5 (+12V) and 6 (27MHz) instead - GCVideo doesn't need either of them. Additional GNDs are are a good thing when dealing with high-speed signals.

Also to add for andre, before complicating and changing up the install, at least verify everything is working per recommended instructions.. After that is at least performed then you have established a working foundation to begin experimenting with any other connectivity method you choose...
Of course, I just was asking because I also hate having 22 wires hanging out of the gamecube a ffc cable would look a lot better and I could disconnect the gcvideo from gamecube to gamecube but it was just a idea. So you could get it working with only 18 wires
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by megalomaniac » Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:13 am

i know no one will be happy until there is an HDMI solution...
that might be beyond the scope of the design....but there may exist readily available HDMI possibilities to add on for this...
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by megalomaniac » Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:37 am

quick pic of a fast and dirty install...

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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by Ashen » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:19 am

I love that you use tape just like i do to secure things for testing. I also love all that wire porn you hate so much.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by megalomaniac » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:49 am

Ashen wrote:I love that you use tape just like i do to secure things for testing. I also love all that wire porn you hate so much.
i love tape...i hate wire porn....

my unreleased MEGA X project will take care of all that wireporn crap...
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by tueidj » Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:23 am

I'd prefer wireporn over FFC any day, that shit is designed to break down and be non-repairable.
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by andre104623 » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:28 pm

tueidj wrote:I'd prefer wireporn over FFC any day, that shit is designed to break down and be non-repairable.
What!? Are you high you would rater have 22 wires then one FFC cable? And it looks like shit thats like you saying that "I would like to install my wiikey fusion with wires then a megadrive because there is less of a chance of failure" that's crazy
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Re: Cloning the GameCube component cable

Post by andre104623 » Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:15 pm

Just got my boards in the mail. They look good smaller then I thought. Going to be a bitch soldering these. Oshpark never sent me a email saying it got back from the fab or being shipped weird
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