[PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

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pr0ton
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[PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by pr0ton » Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:32 pm

Have been searching for this, but can't find much information: VGA and Wii. Only reference for me: http://www.gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id= ... _av_pinout.
PAL Wii can output RGB (or component when shorting pin 8+10), but generally speaking only 480p (EDTV/HDTV) is possible over component for the Wii. So I read this line from gamesx.com: If RGB is available, VGA should also be, since VGA is just non-interlaced (progressive) RGB. The system is obviously capable of VGA-resolution output, the trick will be enabling RGB & non-interlaced at the same time. Well, with only shorting pin 8+10, RGB will turn into component, because RGB and component are on the same pins.

For a moment I thought this cable will do it: http://www.dealextreme.com/p/pc-monitor ... -wii-54585. Openend cable and it seems it is using the LMH1251 (with some very cheap solderings and cables), configured to convert component into RGB. Not doing a bad job, but with side effects because the circuit isn't finished I think (losing sync problems which can be solved with 'logic inverter(?)', see LMH1251).

Discovered today that my projector accepts 576i VGA too, cool. Now I hope 480p and RGB is possible for the Wii, or even better 576p and RGB :) .
Last edited by pr0ton on Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
DOL-001&DOL-101 <- PAL
HomelandReloaded

Re: [PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by HomelandReloaded » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:27 am

I don't know very much about the technical stuff, but from actual experience I have never seen RGB on a SCART give the same high resolutions and frequencies as RGB on a VGA cable. I have an official Nintendo SCART connector for the Wii (it has the RGB pins, so I suppose it uses them) and I have just tried comparing it with the Component cable on the Wii. Unfortunately when I connect with the SCART there is no way the Wii will let me select the EDTV 480p mode, but despite that, I am not sure if I can see a difference when using the SCART cable instead of the component cable. I am not sure though because I cannot compare the two pictures side by side.

F-Zero GX supports RGB PAL60 (and wide screen) on the GameCube for a "smoother game screen with less flicker", but I don't know if that means 480p mode or not (doesn't say in the user guide).
pr0ton
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Re: [PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by pr0ton » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:17 pm

HomelandReloaded wrote:F-Zero GX supports RGB PAL60 (and wide screen) on the GameCube for a "smoother game screen with less flicker", but I don't know if that means 480p mode or not (doesn't say in the user guide).
No, 576i@60hz :(.

Yesterday on IRC Extrems gave me files, from what I understand to force EDTV/HDTV, so will test these soon when broadband adapter for softmodding arrives.
DOL-001&DOL-101 <- PAL
pr0ton
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Re: [PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by pr0ton » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:58 pm

Not so sure about TV and 480p SCART.

And to Extrems: tested today with LM1881N and GBS-8220 (RGBs), but no output on any .dol. The program runs, because clicking 'Home' on Wiimote takes me back to HBC.

Will make setup with EL1883 next weekend, so I have true horizontal and vertical scan to connect to my projector that accepts almost every signal. And if you need a Wii to test like you said, I can lend you my one.. oh, shipping to Canada, did have Germany in my mind, but still
DOL-001&DOL-101 <- PAL
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Extrems
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Re: [PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by Extrems » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:02 pm

I just fed each components into the composite input of a CRT TV as I lack a scope.

The 'A' variant outputs nothing, as I suspected.
However, the 'B' variant is most certainly RGB.
pr0ton
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Re: [PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by pr0ton » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:49 pm

And should pin 8 and 10 be connected when I start the .dol, so I have already a component progressive signal that turns into RGB? Or can I just start from 480i/576i composite without 8 and 10 connected? answer: pins are ignored
DOL-001&DOL-101 <- PAL
pr0ton
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Re: [PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by pr0ton » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:59 pm

Oops, forgot, with the LM1881N setup I have to change the RSET value..: http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?to ... 36#msg3136. Time to get the right resistors.

Edit: LM1881N not working with new RSET. EL1883 works, partly, but I need that chroma filter for it because video keeps dropping. Shall order chroma filter parts and will see then..
Last edited by pr0ton on Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DOL-001&DOL-101 <- PAL
pr0ton
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Re: [PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by pr0ton » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:48 pm

And back with results. EL1883 works interlaced with chroma filter, 576i going to projector directly is already not bad. Tried correct RSET value (340k ohm), but still no C,H,V-sync signals coming from EL1883. Also tried on GBS-8220, should accept progressive on CGA/EGA too: http://miburl.com/pbwGqg . Till now only tried to retrieve them from composite btw.

There is of course a little chance EL1883 is failing on progressive, but it works for other people. Need to find another progressive source to confirm that.

And correct resistor/setting on LM1881 didn't work too btw. Can an oscilloscope give the definite answer?

Last answer before I'm out of options: should the sync signals be retrieved from green, like it goes with component? RGB and sync-on-green sounds a bit strange, never heard of it.
DOL-001&DOL-101 <- PAL
BenoitRen
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Re: [PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by BenoitRen » Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:51 pm

pr0ton wrote:
HomelandReloaded wrote:F-Zero GX supports RGB PAL60 (and wide screen) on the GameCube for a "smoother game screen with less flicker", but I don't know if that means 480p mode or not (doesn't say in the user guide).
No, 576i@60hz :(.
Wrong. PAL60 is PAL video but with NTSC frame rate and resolution.
Hardware: Wii (PAL)
Hardware configuration: System Menu 4.1E, Priiloader
Swiss boot method: Modified Wii Swiss Booter provided by Extrems
Software medium: Retail discs
pr0ton
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Re: [PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by pr0ton » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:56 am

Well, but interlaced anyway :(.

Still havent tried to retrieve sync signals from ´green´ (instead of composite), could this be the problem?
DOL-001&DOL-101 <- PAL
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Cubelover
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Re: [PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by Cubelover » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:41 pm

I don't think a cable alone or a hack would work. You can use this for your Wii: http://www.hdboxpro.com/eng/shop.htm
I use it since years and you never have to bother with this RGB, PAL50/60, NTSC, interlaced etc crap again because no matter what video signal it eats, it sh*ts out progressive scan signals. Also you don't have any lags.
pr0ton
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Re: [PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by pr0ton » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:50 am

Oh, but I´m sure Extrems knows what he is doing, look at his work for Swiss.

I already have a box like that. Its called the GBS8220, hdboxpro without case. It works, but it has downsides. Especially in fast-moving and dark areas. Also it has a tough sharpness regulation, together with (small) lag. True (RGB) progressive will outstand everything, but prog. component to prog. RGB isn´t doing a bad job indeed.
DOL-001&DOL-101 <- PAL
kkomaa
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Re: [PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by kkomaa » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:54 pm

Hello everyone,

Sorry, I'm digging some old thread here.
But I looked everywhere and this is ONLY place where people talked really about getting RGB and 480p on the Wii.

Has anyone made any progress on this?

From the page pr0ton mentioned, you can read this:
Pins 14, 15 and 16 are used by the Japanese D-Terminal cable.
Data Line 1: 0V = 525 lines (default) ; 2.2V = 750 lines ; 5V = 1125 lines
Data Line 2: 0V = 59.94i / 60i ; 5V = 59.94p / 60p
Data Line 3: 0V = 4:3 ; 2.2V = 4:3 letterbox ; 5V = 16:9

Can't we make something of it? Data Line 2 fed with 5V seems to be a good thing.

It would be awesome to get true RGB (s, HV, on green... whatever!) and 480p.
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Streetwalker
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Re: [PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by Streetwalker » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:05 am

The Wii doesn't even use RGB internally in the first place, don't bother.
kkomaa
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Re: [PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by kkomaa » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:41 pm

Streetwalker wrote:The Wii doesn't even use RGB internally in the first place, don't bother.
What do you mean?
Could you please be more specific?

I bother because finding a CRT which accepts 31kHz and Component is really hard (at least in Belgium, Europe).
I find it easier to modify consoles instead (PS2, Or. Xbox, ...) to get them to work on my PC CRT monitor.

I could grab a converter like the GARO but since the Wii can already display RGBs, I was wondering if it wasn't a "lock" to break to force it display it at 31kHz.
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Streetwalker
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Re: [PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by Streetwalker » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:02 pm

The internal framebuffer is YCbCr 4:2:2, so you won't ever get "true" RGB out of a Wii. Conversion to RGB is required, but you're better off letting your TV do it.
If you really want VGA out of your Wii, you could use gcvideo lite, or a converter cable, but CRT is pointless, Wii games were designed to be played on an LCD screen.
theclaw
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Re: [PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by theclaw » Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:25 am

kkomaa wrote:What do you mean?
Could you please be more specific?

I bother because finding a CRT which accepts 31kHz and Component is really hard (at least in Belgium, Europe).
I find it easier to modify consoles instead (PS2, Or. Xbox, ...) to get them to work on my PC CRT monitor.

I could grab a converter like the GARO but since the Wii can already display RGBs, I was wondering if it wasn't a "lock" to break to force it display it at 31kHz.
31khz RGBs is non-standard. Most devices don't input or output it. (there are rare exceptions)
Personally, I'd recommend looking for an external YPbPr to RGBHV converter. That way you can use consoles' existing 480p modes without modification. Ideally one that upscales non-480p content, since VGA monitors may not accept 15khz.
kkomaa
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Re: [PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by kkomaa » Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:52 pm

@Streetwalker: This was some very interesting information.

@theclaw: Indeed, I've discovered not so long ago both Xbox and PS2 turn into RGsB when put on 480p. The DC displays RGBHV.
In the end, I don't care as long as it RGB because I have a sync converter.

But as Streetwalker pointed out, if the internal framebuffer is YCbCr 4:2:2, I'll never get anything better from the Wii.
Thanks to both of you, I guess this close the topic for good :-).
tueidj
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Re: [PAL] RGB and 480p trick?

Post by tueidj » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:25 am

Minor correction: the internal framebuffer (where the GPU does all its work) is RGB, the external framebuffer (where the TV encoder reads from) is YUV. The point still stands that RGB output is inferior due to the source always being YUV.

(Minor minor correction: the internal framebuffer can be configured for YV12 instead of RGB but this is not used by any existing software.)
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