Devolution has been released

Find all your Nintendo Wii related topics here
User avatar
AC_Orange
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:36 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by AC_Orange » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:44 am

Question related to the anti-piracy measure- is there a file that I can backup in case my hdd dies or I decide to get a bigger one so I don't have to re-verify 100+ games?
My understanding is that if I want to use this same hdd on another Wii I will need to verify the games again which will also mean they will stop working on the original one.

So theoretically if I verified all my games on the second Wii and backed up the file that allows me to play them on that second Wii I will I be able to use this HDD interchangeably? :)

Also wanto to say again, thank you tueidj for this amazing piece of software.
User avatar
emu_kidid
Site Admin
Posts: 4576
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:06 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by emu_kidid » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:51 am

You'll have to re-verify all those discs for r200 anyway :P
Image
User avatar
Nintendo Maniac 64
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:02 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by Nintendo Maniac 64 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:15 am

Here's a question - why do we have to press the home button to activate a wiimote after said wiimote has been turned on or is already on, even when no GC pad is plugged in? I mean in any other homebrew app you just turn on a wiimote and go...and they support using a GC pad and classic controller at the same time as well (heck even the virtual console does).

In other words, I'm confused as to why the wiimotes seem to be set up to be opt-in rather than opt-out, effectively making the user have to turn on the controller twice over.
User avatar
AC_Orange
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:36 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by AC_Orange » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:04 am

Oh no lol, I must admit I haven't updated it in a while, running r159 or something. Thanks for letting me know, not looking forward to it :)
User avatar
Nintendo Maniac 64
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:02 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by Nintendo Maniac 64 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:11 am

AC_Orange wrote:Oh no lol, I must admit I haven't updated it in a while, running r159 or something. Thanks for letting me know, not looking forward to it :)
tueidj's post on GBATemp claims the newest version is r159 but it links to whatever the newest version is, so it's very likely that you have something newer than r159.

Why tueidj doesn't just remove that line from his post I have no idea... (along with the note saying that F-Zero GX doesn't work - that got fixed in r160)
tueidj
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by tueidj » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:16 am

AC_Orange wrote:Question related to the anti-piracy measure- is there a file that I can backup in case my hdd dies or I decide to get a bigger one so I don't have to re-verify 100+ games?
My understanding is that if I want to use this same hdd on another Wii I will need to verify the games again which will also mean they will stop working on the original one.
So theoretically if I verified all my games on the second Wii and backed up the file that allows me to play them on that second Wii I will I be able to use this HDD interchangeably? :)
If you wanted to backup the drive you would have to use a proper backup (and restore) program.
You can use the same HDD with as many wiis as you like provided you always have one of the wiimotes that was connected at verification time.
Here's a question - why do we have to press the home button to activate a wiimote after said wiimote has been turned on or is already on, even when no GC pad is plugged in? I mean in any other homebrew app you just turn on a wiimote and go...and they support using a GC pad and classic controller at the same time as well (heck even the virtual console does).

In other words, I'm confused as to why the wiimotes seem to be set up to be opt-in rather than opt-out, effectively making the user have to turn on the controller twice over.
Because wiimotes are notoriously bad at connecting to the right "slots" if left to decide on their own. Even official wii software that is meant to always use the same ordering gets it wrong a lot of the time, especially on the WiiU because the WiiU pro controller gets included even though wii software can't use it. Apparently they know this because the WiiU menu has a "re-order" option but the 3.0 update broke it, it just makes all the controllers disconnect and none of them will reconnect until you use the gamepad to cancel. I haven't checked the latest update to see if it's been fixed.
User avatar
Nintendo Maniac 64
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:02 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by Nintendo Maniac 64 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:26 am

tueidj wrote:Because wiimotes are notoriously bad at connecting to the right "slots" if left to decide on their own. Even official wii software that is meant to always use the same ordering gets it wrong a lot of the time, especially on the WiiU because the WiiU pro controller gets included even though wii software can't use it.
But in Devolution the user can still reorder the controllers via the home button and the plus button in those situations when the console does get it wrong...so where lies the issue with auto-connecting wiimotes?
tueidj
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by tueidj » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:47 pm

Because if it messes up the order you can't just make your wiimote inactive and move it to the slot you want, the wiimote that currently has that slot must also be inactive which can be a real pain if it's not within reach. Plus if there are GC controllers connected how does Devolution know if you want to use them or the wiimotes?
User avatar
Nintendo Maniac 64
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:02 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by Nintendo Maniac 64 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:51 pm

tueidj wrote:Because if it messes up the order you can't just make your wiimote inactive and move it to the slot you want, the wiimote that currently has that slot must also be inactive which can be a real pain if it's not within reach.
If the wiimote was on, why would it be out of reach? They don't go turning themselves on by themselves and they turn off after 5 minutes of inactivity. This means that, if a wiimote WAS on, it was in reach at max of only 5 minutes ago.
tueidj wrote:Plus if there are GC controllers connected how does Devolution know if you want to use them or the wiimotes?
Not all wii systems have GC ports, and things like the main homebrew channel browser can use both the GC pad and CC pad at the same time...


EDIT: If you're worried about a random wiimote being on and being mapped to player one, then why not just make all the wiimotes turn off when Devolution launches? That way whatever wiimote turns on first will become 1st player.

From a bunch of testing I've done it seems that Devolution will not assign a wiimote to 2nd player if 1st player is not connected, so turning off all wiimotes on Devolution boot should work perfectly.

Also this could theoretically eliminate the requirement of having to press the home button if you disconnect and reconnect a classic controller for whatever reason.
tueidj
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by tueidj » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:18 am

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:If the wiimote was on, why would it be out of reach? They don't go turning themselves on by themselves and they turn off after 5 minutes of inactivity. This means that, if a wiimote WAS on, it was in reach at max of only 5 minutes ago.
Oh if only that were true. Juggling wiimotes to get through the system menu and the sample loader normally means there are at least two connected, sometimes three before a game starts. I shouldn't have to waste time deactivating all my unused wiimotes just because someone else can't be bothered activating the single wiimote they do want to use.
Not all wii systems have GC ports, and things like the main homebrew channel browser can use both the GC pad and CC pad at the same time...
They use them for minor things like navigating a GUI, not full-blown game playing. How is a game meant to properly calibrate a stick if it's receiving input from two different controllers? If the game says to make the controller rumble, which one should receive the message? It's not even possible to poll them reliably at the same rate...
EDIT: If you're worried about a random wiimote being on and being mapped to player one, then why not just make all the wiimotes turn off when Devolution launches? That way whatever wiimote turns on first will become 1st player.
So instead of pressing the home button to activate it, you have to press any button (on the wiimote itself since extensions can't turn it on). Can't really see the logic here.
From a bunch of testing I've done it seems that Devolution will not assign a wiimote to 2nd player if 1st player is not connected, so turning off all wiimotes on Devolution boot should work perfectly.

Also this could theoretically eliminate the requirement of having to press the home button if you disconnect and reconnect a classic controller for whatever reason.
I'm afraid my five months of testing slightly outweighs your "bunch" considering it's only been publically available for a week.
User avatar
Nintendo Maniac 64
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:02 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by Nintendo Maniac 64 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:40 am

tueidj wrote:They use them for minor things like navigating a GUI, not full-blown game playing. How is a game meant to properly calibrate a stick if it's receiving input from two different controllers? If the game says to make the controller rumble, which one should receive the message? It's not even possible to poll them reliably at the same rate...
Calibrations are set on a player basis, not a controller basis? Interesting... well, it's not an issue if you were to make all the wiimotes turn off at Devolution boot as that wouldn't prevent "pick up and play" use of GC pads.
tueidj wrote:So instead of pressing the home button to activate it, you have to press any button (on the wiimote itself since extensions can't turn it on). Can't really see the logic here.
It's how it works for everything else on the Wii if you want to use a wiimote, even in those fluke situations when a wiimote turns off when switching apps and/or games - you press a button and it turns on, and player order is set by the order the wiimotes are turned on. Seems much more standardized and less convoluted to me, especially if a wiimote is already off, then you have to turn it on AND press home - I don't know of any other Wii game or app that requires such a thing.

Also you wouldn't believe the amount of times that I've pressed Plus on a CC pad attempting to start the game and have instead just changed my controller slot because it never crosses my mind to press the Home button to 'start' (I mean, in normal Wii stuff you press Home to quit or change wiimote settings).
tueidj wrote:I'm afraid my five months of testing slightly outweighs your "bunch" considering it's only been publically available for a week.
So you're saying that there are cases where Devolution will actually assign a wiimote to be player 2, player 3, or player 4 even though only a single wiimote is turned on?
tueidj
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by tueidj » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:00 am

Wii software does NOT set the player order by how the wiimotes are turned on, they try (and often fail) to always use the same order based on how the wiimotes were paired with the console. This is why it's particularly stupid on the wiiu, because the wiiu pro can get assigned "controller #1" and you end up having to resync all the controllers when you start a single player game because none of the wiimotes can control the game.

Turning the wiimotes off when starting a game is a silly idea, you're just trading one button press for another with the drawback of waiting for the controller to sync and the annoying risk of ending up with the wrong slot assignment.
User avatar
Nintendo Maniac 64
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:02 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by Nintendo Maniac 64 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:12 am

tueidj wrote:Turning the wiimotes off when starting a game is a silly idea, you're just trading one button press for another with the drawback of waiting for the controller to sync and the annoying risk of ending up with the wrong slot assignment.
That's only be a silly idea if all the wiimotes were already turned on, which is very rarely the case since they time out after 5 minutes. Even if there's a risk of it being the wrong slot, that one rare time it happens and therefore making it necessary to press Home anyway is much less of a hassle and annoying than having to press home EVERY time on EVERY wiimote, and that's assuming you haven't pressed + several times attempting to start a game and borked up the controller order.

Still, even with the risk of wrong controller assignment, have you actually ever seen Devolution get it wrong when only a single controller is powered on? I've only seen it happen with the Wii menu and a Wii game or two, and VERY rarely at that (and it only happened after attempting to assign a different wiimote to player 1), but NEVER with Devolution or any other homebrew app. I know you've been testing for many more months, so I'd be grateful if you actually say if this has happened or not.


EDIT: The only issue I could see is if Devolution is able to see and remember the wiimote order before telling all wiimotes to turn off, because I've only been testing with wiimotes being off before even launching Devolution, not while it's booting Devolution.
Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 on Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
tueidj
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by tueidj » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:43 am

Warning: on the scale of annoyingness you are rapidly approaching the_randomizer levels.

Does it take you 5 minutes to go from the system menu through HBC to Devolution? Of course it doesn't. Which means a wiimote would still be awake and steal the #1 slot before a wiiu pro controller could take it. OK, so let's turn all the wiimotes off when starting the game; now we have to press a button to turn them on and wait for them to sync (again, because we already had to do that once to verify the game). How is that better than just pressing the home button?

A USB keyboard or PS3 pad connected via USB are also valid controllers and they will be identified before any wiimotes connect, what do you think would happen if they automatically grabbed the first available slot and went active?
User avatar
Nintendo Maniac 64
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:02 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by Nintendo Maniac 64 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:46 am

tueidj wrote:Warning: on the scale of annoyingness you are rapidly approaching the_randomizer levels
Thanks for the heads up, but I am unaware of how the_randomizer is annoying-wise, so you'll have to deliberately point out to me when and how I'm being annoying so as to know to avoid such things.

tueidj wrote:OK, so let's turn all the wiimotes off when starting the game; now we have to press a button to turn them on and wait for them to sync (again, because we already had to do that once to verify the game). How is that better than just pressing the home button?
It's better because when you want to play multiplayer but the player 2 or 3 or whatever wiimote isn't on, you already have to press a button to turn on the wiimote and let it sync, and then you still have to press home after that.

In other words, as you put it, I already "have to press a button to turn them on and wait for them to sync", and I have to press Home after that as well. And unless I'm playing with people that specifically knows how Devolution does things, let alone even knows that said game we're going to play is launched through Devolution, I'll have to tell every player to "press home" as well.

And that's without mentioning my 59 year old father who's mother had Alzheimer - assuming I can get him to learn to press the home button after turning on a wiimote, he'll most likely start doing it for Wii games as well. >_<
tueidj
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by tueidj » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:13 am

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:unless it's someone that specifically knows how Devolution does things
It's a homebrew app that runs gamecube games with controllers that they were never designed to use, including some from a completely different family of consoles; common sense says it's not going to work like a normal wii app. It also comes with a text file named README; the hint is in the name.
User avatar
Nintendo Maniac 64
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:02 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by Nintendo Maniac 64 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:20 am

tueidj wrote:It's a homebrew app that runs gamecube games with controllers that they were never designed to use, including some from a completely different family of consoles; common sense says it's not going to work like a normal wii app.
Tell that to Not64, the epiphany of "controllers that they were never meant to use", which I have set up to launch games directly from the HBC so that even my father could handle it (with all my HBC apps "hidden" on a different storage device), and I could make it even more seemless by making a channel forwarder for each N64 game. And sure enough, just like a normal Wii app it syncs controllers on boot or at controller power-on and can be shut off via the power button.
It also comes with a text file named README; the hint is in the name.
I'm not referring to the person who set up Devolution, I'm referring to the other players like my above-mentioned father.

Remember, loaders like USB Loader GX seamlessly put GameCube games, Wii games, VC games, Wii channels, and Homebrew forwarders together on a single screen, which is very useful for, again, people like my father.
User avatar
megalomaniac
Posts: 2480
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:33 am
Location: Drunk in Texas
Contact:

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by megalomaniac » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:42 am

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:
tueidj wrote:It's a homebrew app that runs gamecube games with controllers that they were never designed to use, including some from a completely different family of consoles; common sense says it's not going to work like a normal wii app.
Tell that to Not64, the epiphany of "controllers that they were never meant to use", which I have set up to launch games directly from the HBC so that even my father could handle it (with all my HBC apps "hidden" on a different storage device), and I could make it even more seemless by making a channel forwarder for each N64 game. And sure enough, just like a normal Wii app it syncs controllers on boot or at controller power-on and can be shut off via the power button.
It also comes with a text file named README; the hint is in the name.
I'm not referring to the person who set up Devolution, I'm referring to the other players like my above-mentioned father.

Remember, loaders like USB Loader GX seamlessly put GameCube games, Wii games, VC games, Wii channels, and Homebrew forwarders together on a single screen, which is very useful for, again, people like my father.
@ Nintendo Maniac 64
how about my children?
they cant possibly understand how to use swiss yet, nor do i trust them to use swiss with all its advanced features...so what did i do? i wrote MegaLoader so they can see pictures of what to load and i know exactly what its doing...

there are always options if something doesnt work the way you want, or if something doesnt exist to fit your needs...write a program for yourself...
emu_kidid wrote: beer is like WD40 for megalomaniac's brain, gets the gears moving
>>> BadAssConsoles.com <<<

Image Image Image
User avatar
Nintendo Maniac 64
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:02 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by Nintendo Maniac 64 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:56 am

megalomaniac wrote:if something doesnt exist to fit your needs...write a program for yourself...
So... if I'm understanding you correctly, you're basically saying that I should think about making my own USB GameCube loader with auto-connecting wiimote and classic controller support?

Isn't that a bit... daunting? Not to mention the insane amount of reinventing the wheel it would involve...that just seems like a poor use of my time when Devolution already does nearly everything else right...

Besides, my skill is in hardware hacking, not software hacking. You wouldn't believe the trouble I had just to recompile USB Loader GX with one tiny code alteration, and even though it compiled and ran fine, my tiny code alteration didn't work! >_<

Random thought, I wonder how Devolution handles it if the home button is being held down when it's launched? Hmm... maybe I could make a "ghetto" hack that just has the home button be pressed down constantly in a classic controller. I could even physically remove the home button so that if a user wants the home button they'll use the one on the wiimote instead.


EDIT: Holy crap! It actually works! If you hold down the home button on a classic controller before a wiimote is turned on and keep holding it down, you can load USB loader GX via a channel forwarder then load a GC game via devolution and the wiimote will stay connected without having to press the home button!

Unfortunately, it disables the use of the wiimote's home button as well, so that'll be an issue for any pre-N64 VC games... That also means in those situations that tueidj loves where multiple already-on wiimotes aren't assigned to the correct player slot, you won't be able to fix it without swapping remotes.


EDIT 2: tueidj, would it be useful if I got direct feedback from my family in regards to your current "press home" function? They've never used the "press home" function before to activate a wiimote and don't really know anything at all about how or why Devolution works, let alone by name what Devolution is, so I think they'll make a great test to see just how accessible your "press home" functionality is.

Maybe you'll be right, maybe I'll be right. Who knows?


EDIT 3: Got some preliminary feedback from a gaming session we had. To quote my mother:
Mother wrote:What's that? Where's the Home button?
And to quote my father, who mixed up that order matters for turning on wiimotes but not for pressing home:
Father wrote:I was waiting for you [to press Home] so we'd be in order.
My father also had some particularly direct criticism - it's not the nicest comment, especially since whom he criticizes would likely include myself as well, but I don't want to censor his opinion, so here it is:
Father wrote:The guys making this are tech geeks so they think everyone else can handle it just because they can.
User avatar
AC_Orange
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:36 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by AC_Orange » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:32 am

tueidj wrote:
AC_Orange wrote:Question related to the anti-piracy measure- is there a file that I can backup in case my hdd dies or I decide to get a bigger one so I don't have to re-verify 100+ games?
My understanding is that if I want to use this same hdd on another Wii I will need to verify the games again which will also mean they will stop working on the original one.
So theoretically if I verified all my games on the second Wii and backed up the file that allows me to play them on that second Wii I will I be able to use this HDD interchangeably? :)
If you wanted to backup the drive you would have to use a proper backup (and restore) program.
You can use the same HDD with as many wiis as you like provided you always have one of the wiimotes that was connected at verification time.
Thank you, so I just reconnect/re-sync the Wiimote when I switch between the two Wii's. Easy! I'm not worried about the games on the hard drive, I actually do have backups of all of them, just thought there was something else that devolution uses for verified games, once they have been verified
tueidj
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by tueidj » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:16 am

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:
Father wrote:The guys making this are tech geeks so they think everyone else can handle it just because they can.
"These new-fangled motor cars are too complex for normal people to drive!"
"These microwave ovens have no temperature setting, they'll burn everything!"
"Why do we have to use phone numbers? Why can't I just tell the operator who to call?"
"Command line interface? It should just start the disk that's in the drive!"
"Electronic bus tickets? That's too complicated, they should just keep using conductors!"
"These new mobile phones all have no buttons, how can you dial anyone?"

If your father can acknowledge that the program is made by "tech geeks" he should also be able to realize that they wouldn't make it work like that without good reason, but I've already explained that reason in detail to you and you still don't get it - like father, like son I guess.
Thank you, so I just reconnect/re-sync the Wiimote when I switch between the two Wii's. Easy!
Just in case it's not obvious (since I haven't heard anyone mention it anywhere), Devolution supports synching wiimotes from other wiis by using the red sync buttons just like official software. So if you launch a game and the wii is waiting for verification while the required wiimote is synched to a different wii, you can just synch it directly rather than exiting back to the system menu to do it. I used this feature a lot when I was testing between two wiis, relying on gamecube controllers to navigate HBC and the sample loader.
User avatar
Nintendo Maniac 64
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:02 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by Nintendo Maniac 64 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:45 pm

tueidj wrote:If your father can acknowledge that the program is made by "tech geeks" he should also be able to realize that they wouldn't make it work like that without good reason, but I've already explained that reason in detail to you and you still don't get it - like father, like son I guess.
You missed the part where he's a mechanical engineer and I'm a tech geek myself...you forget that I myself didn't exactly like his remark since his label of "tech geeks" would include me in that as well.

Please do not associate myself with my father's lack of being able to handle new things, I get annoyed with it probably just as much as you seem to be getting just from me "relaying" it to you. However, that won't make me stop letting his viewpoint be known because just flat-out saying that "he is wrong and I am right" is no better than the opposite.

So again, I can handle pressing Home just fine, but I can't just say a big F.U. to someone else's inabilities, regardless of him being my father or not.

This has happened before as well - the multiplayer in Metroid Prime Trilogy forces you to shoot with A and jump with B. Again, I can handle it just fine, but my father just can't wrap his mind around it (we've tried for several matches), heck even my 24 year old sister has some troubles. Conversely, he handles shooting with B and jumping with A in the single player just fine.
User avatar
megalomaniac
Posts: 2480
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:33 am
Location: Drunk in Texas
Contact:

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by megalomaniac » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:57 pm

Maybe you and your entire family should switch to Atari or even Pong if all this seems to be getting too complicated...
emu_kidid wrote: beer is like WD40 for megalomaniac's brain, gets the gears moving
>>> BadAssConsoles.com <<<

Image Image Image
tueidj
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by tueidj » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:22 pm

I'm not flat out saying "I'm right and you're wrong", I have explained the reasons behind it several times. Have you relayed them to your father so his opinion is as well educated as mine?
User avatar
steffen
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:32 pm

Re: Devolution has been released

Post by steffen » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:25 pm

tueidj wrote:I'm not flat out saying "I'm right and you're wrong", I have explained the reasons behind it several times. Have you relayed them to your father so his opinion is as well educated as mine?
I wonder why you're still replying :P
Post Reply