Replacing CPU in gamecube

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iamdablasta
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Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by iamdablasta » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:41 pm

As some of us have experienced, cube64 runs a lot better on a wii(64). This obviously has to do with the wii being more powerful, even if it's just a small "upgrade" from the gamecube (or gamecube 1.5 as some call the wii).

Now, theoretically, I think this could be solved. Anyone remember xbox cpu mods on the original xbox? I wasn't really in the scene, but there are many whom have replaced the cpu with even stronger ones (of the same architecture of course). And I believe this should be possible with the NGC as well.

Let's start with the gamecube's processor, the Gekko.
It clocks at a maximum 486MHz, which is a very limited amount of power.
It's Microarchitecture is part of the PowerPC ISA 1.10, or the PowerPC G3.

Now let's take a look at the wii's processor, the Broadway.
It clocks at a maximum of 729MHz, which is quite the power kick compared to the Gekko (50%)
It also has the same architecture, the PowerPC ISA 1.10, or PowerPC G3.
It also consumed 20% less power than the Gekko, so power consumption would NOT be a problem.
It is also reported, but not confirmed it is directly derived from the Gekko (basically just an upgrade, but otherwise the same).
It is also indeed half the size of the Gekko, but it should still be possible to connect it to the GC regardless of size (with a few modifications).
Most importantly, is is noted to be Backward compatible with the Gekko processor, which is fantastic for these purposes.

Now even more interesting would be looking at the Wii U's processor, which is the Espresso.
The Espresso clocks at a way more powerful 1,24GHz (OVER TWICE THE NGC'S POWER!).
Now the most important parts:
It is indeed also part of the PowerPC ISA 1.10, same architechture still going (Well, nintendo has always just upgraded console by improving the previous, but you get my point).
Even so, it is BACKWARD COMPATIBLE with BOTH the Broadway AND the GEKKO (Wii U can actually play NGC games with a controller adapter and some slight modifications with softmodding).

You guys see the pattern I see? The Wii U proccessor is possibly compatible with the Nintendo Gamecube (I am not sure about heat issues, but those of us with Wiikey's/Wasp's/Wode's have good enough space to replace fan and heatsink to be more efficient).
Though, it is less likely to use the wii u proccessor on the gamecube than the wii on the gamecube as they appear more similar (virtually identical imo). Also the Wii U is three cores (so 3GHZ total, but i don't know if it's possible to use three cores on the gamecube) and not one.

The wii cpu (PowerPC 750CL, kinda. it is just a 750CL with a higher clock speed haha) is very likely that the 750CL is a shrink of the same processor for general purpose use (wii+gc).

I'll add a comparison right here:
Image
NintendoCPUComparison.png
Nintendo Console CPU Comparison (NGC-WII-WIIU)
(84.21 KiB) Not downloaded yet

IF anyone has any information not noted down here, please do help the cause.
My hopes aren't too high, but high enough to start researching the chips down to each and every damn pin.
I'd focus on the Wii more than the Wii U though, as it has higher potential for success.

tl;dr: They did it with the Xbox, Now I want to do it with the NGC and have reasons to believe it could work
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by novenary » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:12 pm

That would be hard. How do you plan to desolder a BGA chip ? Also IIRC Broadway = OC Gekko + finer process. So we could try OC-ing the Gekko first. ;)
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by iamdablasta » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:37 pm

Hard indeed, on the xbox the cpu had to be desoldered (heatgun, anyone?) and then a new one would have to be soldered in.
However, the fact that it could be possible only gives reason to try. I could always buy a broken wii with a presumably working CPU and take notes on where each pin leads, and do the same with a broken gamecube to gather pin references.


Also, here is a thread on overclocking the Gekko: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=1109
Though, dissapointingly low motivation there. Even if not much to gain (though, I personally disagree).
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by Diminuendo » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:58 pm

there is an extra 22 pins on the wii processor, if you can do it it would be awesome, but good luck

don't get me wrong, some people can do crazy reverse engineering, but drawing those crazy people might be a problem
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by novenary » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:03 pm

Yeah 1.5x is a significant gain in frequency. But we should also overclock the rest for it to be interesting.
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by kinect360 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:27 pm

I have a rework station so lifting the cpu would be no problem here, how ever, replacing it with a wii cpu which is not the same size at all would not work.

Unless you solder to each pin, but we do not have a pin out to do so.
Last edited by kinect360 on Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by iamdablasta » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:34 pm

Diminuendo wrote:there is an extra 22 pins on the wii processor, if you can do it it would be awesome, but good luck

don't get me wrong, some people can do crazy reverse engineering, but drawing those crazy people might be a problem
Yeah I noticed, but I think If we can pinpoint which pin does what function and compare the two there is a large probability for 22 of those to be superficial for the gamecube.




Another thing that could be fun to do would be mounting a wii inside a gamecube and flash the gamecube bios onto the wii board. Theoretically the same as overclocking the gamecube since the wii is just an upgrade, though nowhere as fun and rewarding to do.
kinect360 wrote:I have a rework station so lifting the cpu would be no problem here, how ever, replacing it with a wii cpu which is not the same size at all would not work.
Please give me a source providing information for it to be impossible, and not just hard.
I know they are of different size, but the cpu does not have to be same size except for it to fit snuggly. There are "alternative" ways of connecting a cpu.
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by kinect360 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:37 pm

It would not be impossible, just hard. I would gladly try it providing I had pinouts, a gamecube to spare and a wii cpu
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by iamdablasta » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:54 pm

Considering the Gekko is based on the PowerPC 750 XCe I am adding IBM's information on the chip.
I think I saw some pinouts in here, will edit post with further information on the go.

GEKKO (750XCe)
https://www-01.ibm.com/chips/techlib/te ... 3.1_ds.pdf
Got it, figure 5.4 Page 29 shows the pinout for the 750 XCe
Read the rest of the chapter for viable information.

BROADWAY (750CL)
https://www-01.ibm.com/chips/techlib/te ... 009dft.pdf
Figure 4.3, Page 40 shows pinout for the 750CL
Read the rest of the chapter for viable information.


Going through the entire chapter in both pdf's, the 750CL is INDEED backwards compitable with the 750XCe. I confirmed it myself just in case. (Gotta make sure those wikipedia references are correct, basing a project on false information is a no good obviously).
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by megalomaniac » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:10 pm

no GC title will benefit from a CPU swap or ram upgrade...
no GC title performs "better" on a wii...


so you want to perform a CPU swap just to hope it provides a performance gain for use with an emulator??


( other than CPU ) have you investigated why there is a difference in performance between wii64 and cube64?
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by iamdablasta » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:22 pm

megalomaniac wrote:no GC title will benefit from a CPU swap or ram upgrade...
no GC title performs "better" on a wii...
No GC title? Then why do I have three games lagging on occasion?
megalomaniac wrote:so you want to perform a CPU swap just to hope it provides a performance gain for use with an emulator??
Partly, this was obviously my first thought. But there are other uses too (probably).
Also, I think it would be a fun experience. Rewarding myself after (if) succesfully transplanting a cpu would feel great.
megalomaniac wrote:( other than CPU ) have you investigated why there is a difference in performance between wii64 and cube64?
Not really, but by upgrading every main component on the NGC there is no reason for it NOT to have a better performance.
Taking a step at a time I think with time it would be possible to swap just about any component limiting the performance of the NGC, even possibly allowing a higher resolution natively (though I very much that one).
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by megalomaniac » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:29 pm

iamdablasta wrote:
megalomaniac wrote:no GC title will benefit from a CPU swap or ram upgrade...
no GC title performs "better" on a wii...
No GC title? Then why do I have three games lagging on occasion?
what media are your using to play these titles (original discs ?? sdcard?? usb??)
post the names of these three titles:
when do the titles lag and where:
did you verify if the same lag exists on both wii and GC?
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by Benni » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:48 pm

BUT:

Games are running faster on a XBOX with higher CPU!!!

I own one!
128MB RAm and 1GHZ CPU -> Games are faster then with 733MHZ!
I think this would be the same Prob here!!!
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by novenary » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:49 pm

Wii in GC mode is underclocked anyway so it shouldn't make a difference. (To Mega)
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by iamdablasta » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:50 pm

megalomaniac wrote: what media are your using to play these titles (original discs ?? sdcard?? usb??)
post the names of these three titles:
when do the titles lag and where:
did you verify if the same lag exists on both wii and GC?
I'd like to correct myself, I obviously meant slowdowns (noticed this while writing).

Original Disc, Clean. (Same happens with backup) All of them.

I'll start with two obvious ones:
Majoras Mask Port to gamecube.
Ocarina of time Master Quest port to gamecube.
Neither are natively made for gamecube, but it is still quite annoying with random slowdowns (at any given time, usually when there are a lot of sounds, movement, and action at the same time.

The third, which is indeed made for gamecube (and wii) is twillight princess. It does not have any issues on wii, but on the gamecube I have short and long slowdowns (from 1x to a maximum of 0.6x speed). This happens mostly with in select areas (due to specific mobs maybe?). I haven't played in a while, but I remember some parts of the game being more tricky for the GC than others. (First third of the game ran smoothly IIRC).
I have tried both the GC copy of the game and the wii copy. (GC on GC, and Wii on Wii). I haven't actually tested if the original GC copy lags on wii, since I borrowed it and only have a backup left (and I can't run GC backups on wii with current settings).

Benni wrote:BUT:

Games are running faster on a XBOX with higher CPU!!!

I own one!
128MB RAm and 1GHZ CPU -> Games are faster then with 733MHZ!
I think this would be the same Prob here!!!
I know, but there was a solution for this. I remember people installing some kind of switch that would limit the CPU (it was mostly only on full potential with emulators and media players.
Edit: Also, we don't know for sure this will happen with the gamecube as well. I believe there is some kind of FPS limit, and if not a switch or a limit would have to be made.
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by megalomaniac » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:24 pm

those two ported games really dont count for comparison toward the possible advantages of this project because it could just be an emulation issue with no solution.

twilight princess had a wii version and a GC version, cant compare apples to oranges.
you need to compare the original GC disc on both wii and GC hardware to check for that lag issue you noticed..however as pointed out, yes wii runs slower in GC mode because it runs a GC spec, therefore it should have the exact same performance..


iamdablasta wrote:
megalomaniac wrote:( other than CPU ) have you investigated why there is a difference in performance between wii64 and cube64?
Not really, but by upgrading every main component on the NGC there is no reason for it NOT to have a better performance.
Taking a step at a time I think with time it would be possible to swap just about any component limiting the performance of the NGC, even possibly allowing a higher resolution natively (though I very much that one).
before considering a CPU swap as the end all be all solution, take a step back and consider your parameters for comparison between cube64 and wii64
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by iamdablasta » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:37 pm

megalomaniac wrote:before considering a CPU swap as the end all be all solution, take a step back and consider your parameters for comparison between cube64 and wii64
I think it's worth a try regardless, if it's transplanted successfully and still doesn't improve speed we have at least proven that the specs is not a limit in emulation.
A failure is a success regardless.

If anyone has tried Wii64 on the Wii U I would love to hear a speed comparison between the Wii and the Wii U.

Also, (I haven't bothered to actually calculate this one) the Wii CPU can output the NGC's specs at a lower power consumption, this is minimal, but if someone is desperate for an extra minute of playtime on a portable it has a slight use I guess. Though, very pointless.
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by megalomaniac » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:30 pm

make sure to takes pics of your progress during the swap
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by novenary » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:33 pm

What I would find more interesting personally is a custom motherboard PCB that is smaller and has some built in mods for portables. That's probably as challenging.
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by tueidj » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:01 am

This is ridiculous.
There is not a hope of being able to transplant a wiiu cpu into a gamecube. Physically it would be impossible, since the package contains not only the CPU but also the ARM cpu, graphics core, MEM1, dsp etc. The CPU also has a built-in secure ROM, meaning it can only be booted by programs which have been cryptographically signed by Nintendo. It also is not backwards compatible with Broadway by default, that is a special mode that has to be activated by specially written code.
On the other hand if you were going to put Broadway into a gamecube, just save the trouble and use the wii as it is.
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by novenary » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:12 am

+1 tueidj. While overclocking the Gekko would be interesting if possible, Broadway in a GC is not a good idea (since most of the Wii's silicon is in that chip). The problem is that the Wii depends on the crappy Wiimote. :/
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by iamdablasta » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:51 am

tueidj wrote:This is ridiculous.
There is not a hope of being able to transplant a wiiu cpu into a gamecube. Physically it would be impossible, since the package contains not only the CPU but also the ARM cpu, graphics core, MEM1, dsp etc. The CPU also has a built-in secure ROM, meaning it can only be booted by programs which have been cryptographically signed by Nintendo. It also is not backwards compatible with Broadway by default, that is a special mode that has to be activated by specially written code.
On the other hand if you were going to put Broadway into a gamecube, just save the trouble and use the wii as it is.
Yeah I scrapped the Wii U part when I looked into the backwards compitability for it.
Broadway on the other hand, is doable (kinda).
And I hate the wii, I personally think it is worth the trouble over the god damned Wii.

Though, looking into overclocking wouldn't be so bad either. Could get some pretty strong cooling inside the cube.
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by megalomaniac » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:02 am

have you seen the overclock thread?

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=1109
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by iamdablasta » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:07 am

megalomaniac wrote:have you seen the overclock thread?

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=1109
Yeah, linked it early ITT I believe.

Am looking at it currently even.


Would you prefer posting in a new thread or is it allowed to post in year old threads here?
Anyways, I marked PLL and SYSCLK on the Gekko pinout as they seem to be the ones directly related to the clock speed.
Any of you remember the n64 overclock? I'll post an image ---v (Warning, not my image, not sure who made it. Credit where credit is due!)
overclocking n64 with switches.png
n64 overclock
(13.25 KiB) Not downloaded yet

And here: pinout with mark (red PLL, green SYSCLK) Gotta check where they are on the motherboard later so we could hopefully overclock without any desoldering of the chip.
gekkopins.png
(57.87 KiB) Not downloaded yet
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Re: Replacing CPU in gamecube

Post by tueidj » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:50 am

You can already run GC games on a wii with the CPU running at 729Mhz instead of 486. In most cases it makes no difference to the game speed since they run based on other clock sources, like the video speed (vblank/vsync) or audio output rate. In some cases it causes errors because the game expects other parts of the system to run at a dedicated speed and timeouts are triggered when they take longer than XXX clock cycles to complete (DVD/memcard reads, ARAM transfers etc.). In rare cases it causes complete system lockups due to simple bad programming assumptions, like assuming section A in thread 1 will always execute before section B in thread 2 even though no locking instructions are used to ensure it.
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