Question Regarding Picture Quality [PAL & NTSC]

[Arnold007]

Hello GC Forever! This is my first post here.

I have a couple of questions regarding how to achieve the best possible picture quality for the Gamecube in the PAL-region. I have read tons about this subject and I am getting conflicting answers from different sources. Therefore I thought this would be the best place to possibly get a little bit more clarity and knowledge about the subject.

I have a PAL Gamecube in which I am planning to install a GC-Loader. it's a convenient way to access Swiss and as I have understood it also makes the Gamecube region free which ties nicely into my main question. I have been told that the hardware and capabilities of both the NTSC & PAL Gamecubes are the same but their respective games include different data and therefore they differ in what they are capable of transmitting out to the display. NTSC-games supports 480p via component in the digital AV port, and PAL-games support 480i and RGB via SCART in the Analog AV port. Would it be possible to play 480p NTSC games via Swiss using the component cables on a PAL Gamecube since the GC Loader makes it region free? If so.... why should one force 480p on a PAL game..? Have I understood things correctly or am I totally off? I wonder since I am contemplating purchasing the official component cables from a friend of mine and the price is pretty hefty but I am willing to pay if I am able to reap the benefits from them. In the future I am considering the usage of a RetroTink or something similar and I want to give it the best possible signal to work with. Should I get the component or should I stick with RGB-Scart?

If someone would please take their time to explain this for me.. I would be so grateful. Any tips & tricks would be helpful! Glad to finally be a part of this little community!

[Extrems]

Swiss will force 480p/576p by default on your PAL or NTSC games.

[Arnold007]

Swiss will force 480p/576p by default on your PAL or NTSC games.

Yeah... but It can't force 480p with a 480i signal from either Composite or RGB-Scart cables.. if I have understood things correctly.
Therefore people seem to rely on either EON GCHD or component cables for 480p, can PAL games utilize this feature to it's maximum thru Swiss? If not.. can I use a NTSC game on a PAL console via Swiss with GC-Loader to open up this functionality?

[Extrems]

Neither the game nor console's region matter.

[Arnold007]

Neither the game nor console's region matter.

Well you are the first person telling me this. Sounds great. So you are telling me that I can use a component cable together with PAL Gamecube, PAL-Games, Swiss and use it to it's fullest potential? Because prior to this I have heard tons of people saying that SCART-RGB is the best way to use a PAL Gamecube and that PAL-games strips the functionality of the component cable... And that the component cable is aimed at usage together with NTSC games...Hence my original questions in the main-post of this thread. Could you please go a little bit more in-depth in your answers? Thanks!

Would be lovely if anyone else could chime in and confirm or reject this.

[Extrems]

You just plug it in and it works. That's all there is to it.

I'm confident enough in my work to just make it happen with no questions asked.

[Arnold007]

You just plug it in and it works. That's all there is to it.

I'm confident enough in my work to just make it happen with no questions asked.

As a working professional software developer myself I am always curious to how things work. Therefore I think some sort of explanation regarding the questions I asked in the main-post is justified since it's a common belief that the component cable isn't used to it's full potential while using PAL games. You of all people should know this. Therefore I find it kind of silly that you give answers like those you have given. "Confident in my work" Could be a good thing to let people know what works and why it works. Since the component cable with PAL games without Swiss does not work to it's full potential. And now suddenly it does? I think the question is justified. I am not even sure that you know if it works or not.. but you like people to think it does.

Again.. If someone else has anything to add I would love to hear any thoughts.. just not any snobby one-liners. I've had my daily dose of those today.. and they weren't to any help

[CodyGC]

You just plug it in and it works. That's all there is to it.

I'm confident enough in my work to just make it happen with no questions asked.

As a working professional software developer myself I am always curious to how things work. Therefore I think some sort of explanation regarding the questions I asked in the main-post is justified since it's a common belief that the component cable isn't used to it's full potential while using PAL games. You of all people should know this. Therefore I find it kind of silly that you give answers like those you have given. "Confident in my work" Could be a good thing to let people know what works and why it works. Since the component cable with PAL games without Swiss does not work to it's full potential. And now suddenly it does? I think the question is justified. I am not even sure that you know if it works or not.. but you like people to think it does.

Again.. If someone else has anything to add I would love to hear any thoughts.. just not any snobby one-liners. I've had my daily dose of those today.. and they weren't to any help

Unfortunately I can not help. But I was wondering if you would write the same thing after checking the thread below. Maybe you discovered the site recently. Just a curiosity. I hope you solve your problem as soon as possible.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=5221

[Arnold007]

You just plug it in and it works. That's all there is to it.

I'm confident enough in my work to just make it happen with no questions asked.

As a working professional software developer myself I am always curious to how things work. Therefore I think some sort of explanation regarding the questions I asked in the main-post is justified since it's a common belief that the component cable isn't used to it's full potential while using PAL games. You of all people should know this. Therefore I find it kind of silly that you give answers like those you have given. "Confident in my work" Could be a good thing to let people know what works and why it works. Since the component cable with PAL games without Swiss does not work to it's full potential. And now suddenly it does? I think the question is justified. I am not even sure that you know if it works or not.. but you like people to think it does.

Again.. If someone else has anything to add I would love to hear any thoughts.. just not any snobby one-liners. I've had my daily dose of those today.. and they weren't to any help

Unfortunately I can not help. But I was wondering if you would write the same thing after checking the thread below. Maybe you discovered the site recently. Just a curiosity. I hope you solve your problem as soon as possible.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=5221

Ah well yeah. I discovered this website recently. Just trying to breath some life into my childhood console. Well.. Extrems seems to be a man of few words. Does not seem especially willing to help people understand. I thought this website could shine some light on my concerns since I imagine there are tons of knowledgeable people about the GameCube and its hardware & software on here. Not sure why a developer behind Swiss could not elaborate to help a fellow Gamecube enthusiast understand how the system works a little bit better. But well.. I am apparently out of luck. "Just plug it in" was not the sort of explanation I expected on a forum dedicated to a specific console and its different mods. I am hoping he isn't the real Extrems.. since that sort of attitude towards his own fanbase/users would just be off-putting I am about to spend a couple of hundred dollars on a cable just to get the most out of my gaming experience.. I just thought I'd ask whether I could use it to its full potential or not.

There is a saying... "if you can't explain it simply you don't understand it well enough"

[Srandista]

Arnold007: if you have DOL-001 GC (region doesn't matter), than you can use both GC Component cables (if you're ok with selling one of your kidneys) or any of HDMI solution that are on the market. I recently bought Retro-bit Prism for my DOL-001 PAL GC and with Swiss, I was able to force progressive scan to all of my NTSC-U games, that I have stored on SD card. Of course, this only applies, if you're actually using the digital AV out, with analog AV out you're always stuck with interlace scan, no matter the cable you're using.

[Arnold007]

Arnold007: if you have DOL-001 GC (region doesn't matter), than you can use both GC Component cables (if you're ok with selling one of your kidneys) or any of HDMI solution that are on the market. I recently bought Retro-bit Prism for my DOL-001 PAL GC and with Swiss, I was able to force progressive scan to all of my NTSC-U games, that I have stored on SD card. Of course, this only applies, if you're actually using the digital AV out, with analog AV out you're always stuck with interlace scan, no matter the cable you're using.

Hey! Thanks for an interesting response. That is awesome and yes I am willing to sell my kidneys for a bit better picture
Do you know if Swiss makes the Gamecube region free without modding the optical drive? Ie; can I play NTSC roms and PAL roms (without chip-modding my optical drive) thru Swiss? I will use GC-loader anyway but it's just a thought I had. Since nothing is read by the optical drive but rather from an SD card I gather it would most likely bypass the region lock?

[Extrems]

The disc drive is not responsible for region locking, only BS2 is. You can also boot original disc games and burned discs (without a XenoGC) through Swiss as well.

[Arnold007]

The disc drive is not responsible for region locking, only BS2 is. You can also boot original disc games and burned discs (without a XenoGC) through Swiss as well.

That is some fantastic work right there. I will go read about the bootrom Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
So basically XenoGC is more or less useless nowadays? No reason to use one anymore?

[Srandista]

So basically XenoGC is more or less useless nowadays?

Yes, it pretty much is.
I bought Splinter Cell as my exploit entry point (that game still goes for pennies), from which I boot directly to Swiss. If my laser should die on me in the future, I'll probably install PicoBoot. But currently, my PAL console is completely stock, never opened, and I'm running NTSC games from SD card without any issues + like I said with 480p forced via Swiss and the picture quality is freaking amazing

[Extrems]

That is some fantastic work right there. I will go read about the bootrom Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
So basically XenoGC is more or less useless nowadays? No reason to use one anymore?

It's not that amazing. It works the same as the IPL replacements that preceded the XenoGC did, such as the Qoob Pro/SX. The XenoGC had the working name of Qoob Lite.

The only new thing since then is we can override the Windows-1252/Shift-JIS switch, so no more mojibake on even PAL consoles.

[Extrems]

There is a saying... "if you can't explain it simply you don't understand it well enough"

Well, if you absolutely must know...

The basis for this is injecting or replacing code in SDK functions, as to substitute interlaced video modes with progressive video modes when possible (99% of cases), and overriding the vertical filter as to disable deflickering without breaking fade effects.
In the case of forcing 60Hz on a strictly 50Hz game, we can also disable vertical scaling and adjust the internal resolution of the game. This doesn't happen by default as it can cause breakage, so you have to explicitly force a 60Hz video mode.

But wait, games can have multiple executable files, and across 2 discs! Well, because of technical constraints, we have to find all of these and patch them ahead of time before letting the game boot. This can sometime involve decompression and recompression.

But wait, how can the game read these patched files? Well, because of technical constraints, we're also patching the game to cause MMIO accesses to segfault. An hypervisor is then responsible for emulating the faulting instructions, the disc interface, and finally the disc drive. From there we can redirect relevant read requests to where the patched files are stored.

[Arnold007]

There is a saying... "if you can't explain it simply you don't understand it well enough"

Well, if you absolutely must know...

The basis for this is injecting or replacing code in SDK functions, as to substitute interlaced video modes with progressive video modes when possible (99% of cases), and overriding the vertical filter as to disable deflickering without breaking fade effects.
In the case of forcing 60Hz on a strictly 50Hz game, we can also disable vertical scaling and adjust the internal resolution of the game. This doesn't happen by default as it can cause breakage, so you have to explicitly force a 60Hz video mode.

But wait, games can have multiple executable files, and across 2 discs! Well, because of technical constraints, we have to find all of these and patch them ahead of time before letting the game boot. This can sometime involve decompression and recompression.

But wait, how can the game read these patched files? Well, because of technical constraints, we're also patching the game to cause MMIO accesses to segfault. An hypervisor is then responsible for emulating the faulting instructions, the disc interface, and finally the disc drive. From there we can redirect relevant read requests to where the patched files are stored.

Thanks for taking your time. Now I understand it a little bit better. But if you are able to load NTSC roms which natively support 480p (most NTSC games) there should not be a reason to force it right? Forcing should just be needed on the PAL games? Same thing with forcing 60 Hz, it's natively supported on NTSC games and on a couple PAL games. So basically the best thing should be to just use NTSC roms? Or am I confusing something?

[Extrems]

There is a need as deflickering is often erroneously active with the game's native support. Swiss will force by default anyway unless you choose to disable all video patches.

[Arnold007]

There is a need as deflickering is often erroneously active with the game's native support. Swiss will force by default anyway unless you choose to disable all video patches.

Alright that is interesting I want to thank you for creating Swiss and GBI! I haven't tried GBI yet though but I've heard it's good, much better than the pesky disc. Would you advise me to get the component cables or should I just go with the GCHD in your opinion?

[Extrems]

If you have a need for analog component video, the original component video cable will give you the least troubles. Otherwise, just get a CARBY.

[Arnold007]

If you have a need for analog component video, the original component video cable will give you the least troubles. Otherwise, just get a CARBY.

Much appreciated!

[Srandista]

Otherwise, just get a CARBY.

Or in case of Europe, Prism HD. I wanted Carby for the longest time, but to get one in Europe, you have to prepare to pay extra (VAT, clearance, etc.). Recently I found out about Prism HD and it's much easier to get one here. And since all of HDMI solutions are based on the same GC Video, there's no difference in picture quality. GC component cables have nice aura of rarity, but these days there are not many reasons left, why to get them specifically (apart from the collecting reasons).

But if you are able to load NTSC roms which natively support 480p (most NTSC games).

Also, this isn't really the case. Nintendo published games did support progressive scan in most if not all cases, but outside of that, the support was more like 50:50.

[Extrems]

Or in case of Europe, Prism HD. I wanted Carby for the longest time, but to get one in Europe, you have to prepare to pay extra (VAT, clearance, etc.). Recently I found out about Prism HD and it's much easier to get one here. And since all of HDMI solutions are based on the same GC Video, there's no difference in picture quality. GC component cables have nice aura of rarity, but these days there are not many reasons left, why to get them specifically (apart from the collecting reasons).

The CARBY has a higher quality connector and poses no mechanical conflict with the Analog AV Out in case you wish to use it, for audio for example. It also isn't made by Bitfunx.

Go buy from Bitfunx/RetroScaler directly on AliExpress if you want cheap.

[Srandista]

The CARBY has a higher quality connector and poses no mechanical conflict with the Analog AV Out in case you wish to use it, for audio for example.

I don't wanna beat a dead horse (and making off-topic posts), but trust me, there's no conflict with analog AV port, I just tried it.

[Extrems]

That's only true if you use after-market cables with a narrower plug. The originals will be a difficult fit.